Melee Suggestions

Anything related to melee weapons and attacks.
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Dervic
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:55 am

Melee Suggestions

Post by Dervic » Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:46 pm

General considerations:

Weapons:
There's too little variety in most weapon available. For each class you should have competitive variants with differences in speed, power and reach.
Most swords are in general too good: fast, long reach and accuracy/armor piercing bonuses.

I'd do a balance pass over weight / attack speed / reach:
Average 35cm reach per 1kg on weapon.
New attack speed formula: (str+agi)/weapon_weight + bonuses.

Stamina:
At this point stamina is a pain to manage, if you use any active combat skill, the stamina cost tends to punish you so much you end up not using them in the end.
There are a few ways around this:
- Increase the available stamina (either overall, or tie it to talents or stats);
- Reduce overall stamina costs;
- or Reduce stamina costs for Active Skills only.

Walking/Running:
I understand the basics of walking to preserve stamina and increase your accuracy and defense... however what happens is that the faster movement is too big an advantage, so there's really no point in slowing down in most occasions.
Tweaking stamina will probably affect this, but at this point the balance is off.

Accuracy/Parry loss per swing:
It was changed from 0.0.16 to 0.0.17, but it went too far. Proper balance should be somewhere in the middle.

Talents:
Attack Speed - Too little impact per point spent. If you change the attack speed formula it could go to 4 points like the other initial talents.
Attack Power - What does this even do? I'd change it to 'Endurance - Reduce stamina cost from active skills by 15/30/45/60%.'
Counter Attack - The skill is good but 1 - the time window needs to be increased, it's pratically impossible to use successfully at this point, 2 - It needs some sort of warning that it can be used, usually this is done by a dynamic skill button lighting up.
Draw weapon - This talent is not useful enough. Change it to 'Marathon - Increase stamina regeneration while running to 25/50/75/100% of normal.'
Shield Bash - It's not useful enough. Just bake the effect into the Shield talent and use the slot for something else.
Berserk - Seems balanced enough. I haven't tested it much.
Fight in the Ranks - This talent costs a bit too much considering it's there to help other people. I'd move it to Shield Bash spot and change the cost to '1/1'.
Duel - The effect could be cleaned up a bit. If you changed it 'Focus Opponent - Increase Accuracy and Parry by 10 against the target of the skill. Reduce Accuracy and Parry by 10 against other enemies.' (Coding wise you'd just need a timed debuff on the player with -10 Accuracy, -10 Parry overall and a timed debuff on target with -20 Accuracy and -20 Parry against the player using the skill.)
Charge - Where do i start with this... It works fine unless there are obstacles in the way or the target can run, otherwise it's a mess. You could try changing the behaviour to forced run forward (set Running on and floor the 'w') and auto-damaging the first target to enter reach. Other than that it could use a movement speed boost too.
Cleave - At this point in time it's just bad. It would be ok if you could use hard-hitting skills like power attack regularly which sadly you can't. It probably would work better if it did bonus damage whenever multiple enemies were hit.

And there's a wall of text, have fun :P.

allnewbagels
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:07 pm

Re: Melee Suggestions

Post by allnewbagels » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:36 pm

Gonna piggy back on this post and add some of my own thoughts here

Right now spears combined with cleave are ridiculously OP to the point where even the worst spear outclasses the best sword because of their horizontal reach. In PvP I would imagine spears are just as OP for the same reason.

Attack speed (the stat not the talent) seems a little overtuned.

Completely disagree with Devic's stamina assessment. I always walk because the passive stamina regen is more than enough to keep me attacking infinitely. If you run you'll run out of stamina in 3-5 attacks.

For talents all of the active abilities are kind of worthless. I'd rather just attack normally because I don't lose any stamina that way and I don't get locked in place from the animation.

Devic is on point with Counter Attack. Although you really need to be careful with the window because it could easily become OP with shields.

Kick might be OP in PvP but I'm not sure.

There doesn't seem to be any benefit to dual wielding but that might just be because of the limited weapon pool in the beta. If weapons gave more stats (especially int) dual wielding would be really good.

Right now Crit combined with the Shadow God is far and away the best build. The god ability that gives +50% crit damage is too easy to get and gives you too much of a DPS increase if you just max out crit, which you're going to be doing anyways because Crit on its own is the biggest DPS increase in the melee tree.

Fight in Ranks is 100% mandatory for soloing. I don't know if this is intended but it should probably be changed so that it either costs less or make it so that you just can't hit the Goblin with friendly fire.

Cleave is OP with Spears but garbage with everything else because no other weapons have good horizontal reach. I would double the horizontal reach of every weapon in the game and bring the Spear down to the same range so that Spears won't be OP and Cleave will actually be good for PvE.

Berserking is worthless because its detection range for enemies is too short. Once you've killed everything near you, you just stand still for the rest of the duration and usually that means your Goblin dies.

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Omnipotent
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:08 pm
Location: California, USA

Re: Melee Suggestions

Post by Omnipotent » Thu Oct 06, 2016 7:47 pm

Great points Dervic.
Dervic wrote:General considerations:

Weapons:
There's too little variety in most weapon available. For each class you should have competitive variants with differences in speed, power and reach.
Most swords are in general too good: fast, long reach and accuracy/armor piercing bonuses.

I'd do a balance pass over weight / attack speed / reach:
Average 35cm reach per 1kg on weapon.
New attack speed formula: (str+agi)/weapon_weight + bonuses.
I would agree with just about everything here. Good ideas and you're right on the money with variety and their strength.

There are some things like the hammers which have insane reach and shouldn't be anywhere near that long. Hammers are notorious for being closer range than swords, but hitting much much harder. They probably shouldn't have 100+ reach unless they are really long imo (and subsequently very heavy).
Dervic wrote:Stamina:
At this point stamina is a pain to manage, if you use any active combat skill, the stamina cost tends to punish you so much you end up not using them in the end.
There are a few ways around this:
- Increase the available stamina (either overall, or tie it to talents or stats);
- Reduce overall stamina costs;
- or Reduce stamina costs for Active Skills only.
I would agree with this. On my first build I went with skill abilities and I would hit like a wimp and ran out of stamina very quickly. Then when I switched to not using abilities and immediately focusing on accuracy -> parry & rest, my warriors actually started feeling like warriors.

The stamina management issue has caused me to hate Dual Wield as well. It's a great idea, but then you also have to put points into dual wield that you could otherwise put into melee? It causes you to have to divide your focus when strength should still improve dual wield. I would rather be able to put multiple points into dual wield and improve it that way than by dividing us away from putting points into melee as a melee character. It's hard enough having to deal with dodge, spotting, and the rest :P
Dervic wrote:Walking/Running:
I understand the basics of walking to preserve stamina and increase your accuracy and defense... however what happens is that the faster movement is too big an advantage, so there's really no point in slowing down in most occasions.
Tweaking stamina will probably affect this, but at this point the balance is off.
I would probably agree here too. Walking seems a little too slow and the stamina increase isn't enough to offset it. And since running doesn't drain stamina (please keep it this way, I'm am NOT saying we should make running drain stamina. Unless you redo stamina costs with movement and their move speeds entirely), there is literally no point in walking (Unless you're on a level 1 character with 0 points into accuracy and *right* beside your target). I would rather run 100% of the time and stop to regen stamina than to ever walk around anywhere.

What if?: Walking was considered running/moving and was still a decent speed, but not as fast as running is now. And it would function as normal, with some stamina regen. But running was now sprinting; a little faster but it drains stamina while moving. This would make it so players are walking/moving around everywhere, but sprinting when they have excess stamina or need to get some where/save someone. - It's an interesting idea and could potentially work.
Dervic wrote:Talents:
[Y]Attack Speed - Too little impact per point spent. If you change the attack speed formula it could go to 4 points like the other initial talents.
[Y+*]Attack Power - What does this even do? I'd change it to 'Endurance - Reduce stamina cost from active skills by 15/30/45/60%.'
[?]Counter Attack - The skill is good but 1 - the time window needs to be increased, it's practically impossible to use successfully at this point, 2 - It needs some sort of warning that it can be used, usually this is done by a dynamic skill button lighting up.
[Y*]Draw weapon - This talent is not useful enough. Change it to 'Marathon - Increase stamina regeneration while running to 25/50/75/100% of normal.'
[?]Shield Bash - It's not useful enough. Just bake the effect into the Shield talent and use the slot for something else.
[?]Berserk - Seems balanced enough. I haven't tested it much.
[Y+*]Fight in the Ranks - This talent costs a bit too much considering it's there to help other people. I'd move it to Shield Bash spot and change the cost to '1/1'.
[?]Duel - The effect could be cleaned up a bit. If you changed it 'Focus Opponent - Increase Accuracy and Parry by 10 against the target of the skill. Reduce Accuracy and Parry by 10 against other enemies.' (Coding wise you'd just need a timed debuff on the player with -10 Accuracy, -10 Parry overall and a timed debuff on target with -20 Accuracy and -20 Parry against the player using the skill.)
[?]Charge - Where do i start with this... It works fine unless there are obstacles in the way or the target can run, otherwise it's a mess. You could try changing the behaviour to forced run forward (set Running on and floor the 'w') and auto-damaging the first target to enter reach. Other than that it could use a movement speed boost too.
[?]Cleave - At this point in time it's just bad. It would be ok if you could use hard-hitting skills like power attack regularly which sadly you can't. It probably would work better if it did bonus damage whenever multiple enemies were hit.

And there's a wall of text, have fun :P.
Thanks! :P Bold on the left is how I felt about suggestions in [Y]/[N] format. A [?] means I am unsure, and a [Y+] means I am really on board with it.

*'s
Attack Power - I know, right? What exactly does this do? I would love to hear the explanation. xD
Draw Weapon - I like your suggestion but feel like 100% of normal might be a little too good for a skill achieved that early.
Fight in the Ranks - Woah, literally exactly how I felt. I didn't understand why it was gated behind shield bash and didn't really want shield bash. It's supposed to be there to help people and I want to get it, but don't want to have to drop that many precious melee points.
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Fredrik
Site Admin
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Melee Suggestions

Post by Fredrik » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:52 pm

Hi guys. Lots of text.. :) but thats good.
I ready everything but I dnt have time to respond to everything right now.
But I do take everything you write in consideration.

Stamina will go through a rework.

walk/run I have added cause I dont like all action games, where there is melee involved and you just around each other in cirles.
Will change it abit.

Attack power is how hard you hit. attackpower*swing*damagebonus*weapon-type*weapon-weight = Stun time
Damagebonus is based on str+ size

Damage is also affected by damagebonus. Which will be more affected with full swing. no swing ~50% damagebonus. full swing 100% damagebonus


Hammers do most stun
spears and knifes almost no stun
(it says if you over weapon)


Different weapon do different damage depending on swing.
Knife: doesnt matter if full swing or not pretty much.
Sword: do damage with no swing. and a little more with full swing.
Axe: do low damage without swing and alot with full swing
Spear: full damage without swing. no change with swing.

and so on..

Will look trough weapons and make them alittle more specialized

Fredrik
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Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Melee Suggestions

Post by Fredrik » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:38 am

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